Th one thing that much "pure water" will cleanse from your system is sodium and electrolytes. Losing your sodium will make you retain less water and it will make you lighter by losing water weight.

"but it is certainly the best thing that you can purchase if you DON'T have easy access to organic fruits and vegetables."

Again, I have to recommend a book: The Undercover Economics. It will tell you how Organic fruits and vegetables are used to price discriminate the price sensitive from the price insensitive people at the grocery store. If you're willing to pay $2 more per pound for organic by golly they will sell it to you. It costs practically nothing to make something in the organic way, the biggest price difference comes from the markup at the grocery store. Same goes for Fair Trade Coffee at the coffee shop. But hey, we know t hat a lot in our life is about psychology and the placebo effect so whatever works for you…

"I actually take exception to the notion that these products will "detox" the body. The only things that do that are raw and natural – pure water and organic fruit and vegetables in other words."

Interestingly enough, Isagenix agrees with you COMPLETELY on this point. During their programs, they recommend that you drink a TON of pure water. It was recommended to me that I should, if possible, drink one half my body weight in ounces of pure water per day. And their Cleanse for Life beverage, which is what you drink on 'Cleanse Days' [There are four cleanse days in the program John has started. Or in the Thirty Day program, there is one per week.], is a concentrated blend of pure fruit and vegetable juices grown all-naturally and organically.

One could argue that drinking such a beverage is not as good as eating all of those fruits and vegetables yourself, but it is certainly the best thing that you can purchase if you DON'T have easy access to organic fruits and vegetables. And because it is concentrated, the amount of fruit and veg that you would have to eat to get the same nutritional benefits is massive, probably even prohibitive.

"The difference of course, as I've already pointed out, is that Isagenix isn't only about weight loss. It can do SO MUCH more for a person, and I have seen it do so much more!"

It seems like we tend to agree about weight loss in general. When I did some research into Isagenix I have found that weight loss is actually marketed as a side effect and not the real reason to be on it, it's all these other benefits that Isagenix allegedly has makes it worth while to use the product.

But since this is a weight loss blog I can see why you'd try to market it a bit different here. It is also a lot easier to put a quantitative value on weight loss vs. general well being.

I'm simply very skeptical about those claims, that is all. If it can be proven that Isagenix indeed has those effects and it is the most convenient, easiest, cheapest, otherwise called optimal strategy to achieve general well being then I would not be so hard on it, I would probably even try it. However I have yet to see this point proven or substantiated with hard evidence.

"A Shake Day in the Isagenix Nine Day will have you consume about 1100-1200 calories in a day–a calorie deficit for just about every adult on the planet. A Cleanse Day in Isagenix will have you consume about 300-400 calories in a day–again a deficit for sure. But to ensure that this deficit is healthy, Isagenix at the same time fills you with ALL of the vitamins, minerals, and other nutrients you need."

Now that we have some numbers listed it is a lot easier to pain a clearer picture of Isagenix. If you eat 1100-1200 calories in a day you will most definitely lose weight whether you exercise or not. And when you do 2-3 cleanse days in a month at 300-400 calories you're probably saving 3,500-7,00 calories in a month. That is 1-2 lbs which can make the difference whether you get to maintain your weight or you gain 15 lbs in the next year.

And I will also agree that Isagenix would certainly be a lot better way of eating 300-400 calories in a day than be on he cabbage or grapefruit diet. It is a lot more well rounded solution than any of these crash diets.

If you'd rather starve 2-3 days every month than give up your daily Snickers bar or handful of M&Ms then yes, Isagenix cleanse offers a viable solution that is a lot better than other alternatives not even taking into account the hypothetical other benefits it might have.

My problem is still that eating 300-400 calories in a day is not healthy for anyone regardless whether they eat it with a healthy dose of vitamins or not.

"What are your motives, Greg? Perhaps to drive up the readership of your own blog by posting inflammatory comments at a bunch of other weight loss blogs? Just curious."

As I wrote before I and others tend to think I'm pretty blunt or brutally honest. My dad used to call me "champion of truth". And it has gotten me into plenty trouble throughout the years. I also lack some tact when it comes to posting and commenting but that doesn't mean my facts are wrong or written out of malice.

I stumbled upon John's site by accident while looking for WordPress Plugins that help with charts. I wanted to add some charting to my blog and this is what landed me here. Then I started reading his blog and found it a pretty good read.

Truth be told I would not even have commented on the first Isagenix blog post if it wasn't for another commenter, BRussel before me. His comment was just so factually wrong I could not leave it alone. After that I just tried to research and figure out more about Isagenix and whether it is really all that it's cracked out to be. I found it not to be the case in my opinion which can buy you a coffee if you add another couple of dollars to it. The rest is history.

My blog is a personal blog, no ads, no sponsors. I have no monetary motivation to drive visitors to it. I'm doing my blog for myself and for public accountability. If it gets more visits, fine by me. If it doesn't that is OK too.

I have purposely stayed out of much of the conversation on Isagenix however I do want to support Nick's assertion here – based on the conversations we have had I honestly believe he is totally sincere about wanting to help me – and equally disappointed in me that I have not followed the program as prescribed.

I'm starting to get the impression that we are talking right past one another–or, more specifically, that you are talking right past me.

I COMPLETELY agree with you that the only way to lose weight is to consume less calories than you burn.

I COMPLETELY agree that sustained and healthy weight loss is difficult.

In fact, I might even agree with this statement of yours: "But I can guarantee that in a control group environment with a straight comparison to other people on calorie deficit diets, whole foods and protein and vitamin supplements there would be no difference." The difference of course, as I've already pointed out, is that Isagenix isn't only about weight loss. It can do SO MUCH more for a person, and I have seen it do so much more!

Here's another statement of yours: "And I'm sorry but my "right way" is the only way to lose weight. Eat less than you burn." Again, you missed my point. My "right way" and your "right way" are BOTH to eat less than you burn. The difference is HOW you choose to go about doing that. As someone who likes research you should appreciate this next bit of information:
A Shake Day in the Isagenix Nine Day will have you consume about 1100-1200 calories in a day–a calorie deficit for just about every adult on the planet. A Cleanse Day in Isagenix will have you consume about 300-400 calories in a day–again a deficit for sure. But to ensure that this deficit is healthy, Isagenix at the same time fills you with ALL of the vitamins, minerals, and other nutrients you need. I am sure that you are aware that this is why most other severely restrictive diets are unhealthy–in the process of restricting your calories, they also restrict all of the other goodness that your body needs to be healthy.

On another note, I noticed that you made a point of stating that you are an engineer and sprinkled some nice references to thermodynamics in your reply. Good for you! I’m assuming that you did so with a view that the general readership of John’s blog would say to themselves, “Oh, this Greg guy is an engineer, so he must know what he is talking about.” Fair enough, I suppose, but with that in mind, I want to say that I, too, am an engineer. I graduated from a Top Ten engineering university and received a Bachelors in Astronautical Engineering. I then completed a year long Masters level program in Nuclear Engineering and worked in and around nuclear reactors for nine years. (Not that ANY of that has anything to do with a weight loss blog…)

Finally, I have to admit that I am curious about your motives in posting such forceful and almost belligerent comments here at Johnisfit. I think that my motives are pretty clear:

First, I am trying to promote Isagenix to John’s readership, because if they are interested, John will point them toward me, and, YES, I will earn a little bit of money. I do think, however, that this is blatantly obvious. I would point out that it this common on blogs such as John’s. He has reviewed many products given to him for free by various companies trying to “get the word out” regarding their products.

Second, perhaps unbelievable to the cynics in the audience, I am trying to help John achieve his weight loss objectives. I fully believe that he could reach a healthy and sustainable weight of 210-220 pounds, down from his current just-under-295 pounds, using Isagenix in 6-8 months time.

What are your motives, Greg? Perhaps to drive up the readership of your own blog by posting inflammatory comments at a bunch of other weight loss blogs? Just curious.

Having looked at the nutrient list, it is clear that the Isagenix products are full of processed ingredients. Sell them if you must – there will always be people who will buy them. I won't be one of them though.

I do supplement – chlorella, spirulina, barley grass juice, flax seed, maca powder, etc. But these are all whole foods too.

I actually take exception to the notion that these products will "detox" the body. The only things that do that are raw and natural – pure water and organic fruit and vegetables in other words.

Just a word to Greg – adaptogens are not actually BS. Lots of plants contain them and they do a great job. A lot of the so-called superfoods have them.

I think that the reason a lot of people do well on these is that their diets are so nutrient deficient to begin with. I just don't see that adding isolated vitamins can sustain good health in the long run. So John, I don't think these 9 days will kill you, but I'm looking forward to seeing you caring for yourself in a sustainable way again soon.

I wish you continued success and a lifetime of Good Health.

"Once again, is this necessary: "Being an English professor you should due your due diligence and research before writing articles straight out of the Isagenix marketing brochure." ? There is no need to attack anyone around here."

Again, this was probably not necessary and this is the point where my credibility usually breaks down. Good job finding it. But I must also add that when someone posts their credentials as a formal Naval Officer and a college English professor they just set the bar they are held against a heck of a lot higher than a personal trainer with a high school degree. College professors should be experts on research. Yet the article had factual mistakes and claims that are deceiving. I'm sorry but I just couldn't let them go.

"Further, the "right way" that you have chosen to pursue is simply not possible for lots of people. Whether it is the time required, the discipline necessary, or even the motivation to work out that hard on a daily basis, a lot of people would try your system and burn out before seeing appreciable results."

I'm sorry but there is no easy way when it comes to weight loss and weight maintenance. You can use semantics and argue it all day long that adaptogens work magic, the simple fact of the matter is there is only one way to lose weight: Eat less calories than you need. Whether you accomplish it by reducing calorie intake or boosting exercise is up to you, your time, your hunger threshold and whatever else is in your life. But you can't cheat thermodynamics. Not even with kiwi extract and papaya juice.

If weight loss was easy everyone would be skinny and fit. It simply isn't. Not when food is as tasty and cheap and abundant as it is in our world and our bodies are built for hoarding and storing food, it's in our genetics to get fat.

"Isagenix is so powerful, because most people see immediate results, get excited, and then get the motivation to eat a little better or work out more or make those other changes that are necessary for longterm success while sticking with it."

Like I wrote before, I don't argue that Isagenix works for some people. But I can guarantee that in a control group environment with a straight comparison to other people on calorie deficit diets, whole foods and protein and vitamin supplements there would be no difference. If there would be Isagenix would gloat about such study and results. They don't because they can't. Instead they lure you in with non-measurable non-scientific claims that are unsubstantiated beyond the simple claims of individuals. I'm sorry, I'm an engineer and it's not that easy to sell me on anything with this.

"Finally, I notice that you have not commented, either in response to my comments from John's Part 1 or to Mike's post, about the other benefits that many, many people have experienced using Isagenix. Have you experienced, or do you know anyone who has, similar benefits to what Mike is describing by following your "right way"?"

Just because I don't come out and write pages about how awesome and powerful I feel since I have lost 25 lbs in 7 weeks using my method of dedicated and meticulous work doesn't mean I don't feel it. True scientists would have a field day with comparing people who eat Isagenix and lose weight and people who eat Isagenix and stay the same weight due to not reducing their caloric intake or increasing their caloric expenditure with people who lose weight using another method to achieve net caloric reduction. Again, without such study we're not looking at the isolated effect of the Isagenix goodness. We're looking at a combined effect and the only thing you can conclude from it is correlation, not causation.

"Bob feels great because he lost weight while on Isagenix" is not the same as "Bob feels great because he's on Isagenix while losing weight". You are trying to prove the latter while I simply argue that beyond hearsay of individuals you have nothing to substantiate the claim.

And I'm sorry but my "right way" is the only way to lose weight. Eat less than you burn. Whether you do it via a disciplined and concentrated method using clean foods, good protein supplementation and a healthy dose of exercise for fast results like me, or you do it with Isagenix that tricks you into cutting your calories by replacing 800 calorie lunches with 240 calorie protein shakes the result is the same. You ate less than you burned. That is all there is to it.

I still highly recommend taking a look at some of the websites and articles I have linked to before. John Stone has lost weight, built muscle and kept fit for over 6 years now without the help of adaptogens. Lyle McDonald has written numerous books on weight loss and dieting substantiating his finding and advice with studies and facts.

I also recommend a book I've read recently called Mindless Eating. It's is fascinating to see just what kind of thought process or lack thereof goes into what we put into our mouth. And it has nothing to do with raspberry dew and papaya extract.

So while I agree that Isagenix can certainly work, it's not Isagenix and its magic components and cleansing that do the trick its the calorie reduction that people are tricked into while they're on it without realizing it. For people who can't or don't want to do the simple algebra and research needed to figure out caloric intake it might work. But for anyone who can put a pencil to the paper and do the math and figure out how many grams of fat, protein and carb the should eat in a day to be in a net calorie deficit Isageinc and SlimFast buys nothing.

Once again, is this necessary: "Being an English professor you should due your due diligence and research before writing articles straight out of the Isagenix marketing brochure." ? There is no need to attack anyone around here.

Mike has found something that has worked miracles for him and for many people that he knows. He posted here, because I asked him to do so and because John graciously allowed it. Mike is trying to spread the word on something that he completely believes in and should not be attacked for doing so.

And again, I will reiterate, there are lots of ways to lose weight. Congratulations on your weight loss! You have followed one path, and it has worked for you. Mike, and thousands like him, have followed another path, and it has worked for them. Put your hate away and just accept that there are many ways to be successful, and your "right way" does not give you the right to attack other people's "right way".

Further, the "right way" that you have chosen to pursue is simply not possible for lots of people. Whether it is the time required, the discipline necessary, or even the motivation to work out that hard on a daily basis, a lot of people would try your system and burn out before seeing appreciable results. Isagenix is so powerful, because most people see immediate results, get excited, and then get the motivation to eat a little better or work out more or make those other changes that are necessary for longterm success while sticking with it.

Finally, I notice that you have not commented, either in response to my comments from John's Part 1 or to Mike's post, about the other benefits that many, many people have experienced using Isagenix. Have you experienced, or do you know anyone who has, similar benefits to what Mike is describing by following your "right way"? I highly doubt it. As Mike stated in his post, which you've chosen to ignore, Isagenix is not designed specifically to be a weight loss system, but as a nutritional cleanse. It just so happens that weight loss is an extra added benefit for most people who eat their products.

I have already expressed my opinion on Isagenix so I'm just going to stick to the fact correction this time.

"Don't you think that Isagenix is worth trying if John has been able to lose five pounds in four days without following the plan as it is meant to be followed?"

I think using that argument we should try another whole bunch of things that John has tried in the past 2 years that made him lose 5 lbs in 4 days. Looking at his weight chart we can certainly pinpoint other periods like that. So John has lost 1.3% of his body weight in 4 days. I really wish John will be able to keep the weight off this time and if Isagenix helped him, great!

FWIW I have just lost over 4lbs in 4 days (1.9% of my weight) and this was after I have lost 21 lbs in 6 weeks already, so I know that I didn't just lose water weight, based on fat % measurements it was actually all fat. My trick? Eating at a 1,700 calorie deficit from maintenance while eating 1g of protein per lean body mass every day and doing another 1,000 calories worth of cardio and strength exercise daily.

"the IsaLean shake floods your body with perfect organic nutrition, including 23 grams of undenatured whey protein (from cows in New Zealand that will never be touched by hormones or steroids who eat grass that will never be touches by pesticides or herbicides), all 18 essential amino acids that your body cannot produce itself, and live digestive enzymes."

Actually only eight amino acids are generally regarded as essential for humans: phenylalanine, valine, threonine, tryptophan, isoleucine, methionine, leucine, and lysine. Additionally, cysteine (or sulphur-containing amino acids), tyrosine (or aromatic amino acids), histidine and arginine are required by infants and growing children. Nowhere near the 18 you have mentioned.

I would also like to mention that not all whey protein is created equal. Depending on how much processing they do on the whey it will determine just how pure it is in terms of protein content. If it's more than 88% protein it's a WPI (Whey Protein Isolate) if it's 35% or more but less than 88% it's a WPC (Whey Protein Concentrate) WPI is a lot more expensive to produce and a lot better protein than WPC. IsaLean contains whey protein concentrate, WPC, granted it comes from New Zealand cows. The fact that it's a WPC instead of a WPI explains why it has such a high fat and sugar content, it's simply using the cheaper whey concentrate. But then again, what do I know?

Being an English professor you should due your due diligence and research before writing articles straight out of the Isagenix marketing brochure.